India Against Corruption

Register

  India Against Corruption > INDIA AGAINST CORRUPTION > JAN LOKPAL BILL

LokPal?? Oh, whats the fun!?

It’s amazing to me, are we in the epoch when more scams are HAPPENING or in the era when more .....




  #1  
04-12-2011
Junior Member
 
: Apr 2011
: Bangalore
: 32
:
: 22 | 0.01 Per Day
LokPal?? Oh, whats the fun!?


It’s amazing to me, are we in the epoch when more scams are HAPPENING or in the era when more scams are REVEALED and REPORTED? I always used to wonder and be confused of to whether to feel bad at the scams reported every day, or to feel good that scams are revealed to public and brought into light finally! Big time!

Look at our nation’s panorama of 2010. Satyam, Adarsh, Fake Pilot licenses, CWG, 2G, 3G (Oh, wait for 3G scam as 3G is yet to be launched in India) yeh kya G? And the twists and turns this 2G scam is taking every day- Radia tapes revealed-Raja accused-his aide Batcha died (murdered/suicide?)-Doctor who performed autopsy resigned and joined DMK-contesting in elections-will win??, OMG, it seems to be no lesser than any fictional thriller, and only Sherlock Holmes or James Bond can get to the bottom of this!!

Jokes apart, every day, one wakes up with the thought of new forms of emerging corruption from almost all the possible areas and fields –Telecom, FSI, Sports, Land, Mines, Construction, CVC, Defense, The judiciary of India, The parliament of India, uuf you name it and you find a scam in it!! So deeply ingrained in to the every granule of INDIAN LAND… Every Indian ministry has a scam, every Indian Govt project has a scam, every business/ businessman associated with Indian Govt has a scam. It’s just taking it’s time and waiting for its turn to be exposed. We open up our dailies just to find out another “SCAM” reported in headlines. What’s news in it, perhaps, new names, new fields, and new amount (Of course), but finally the subject line is the same “CORRUPTION”! As Supreme Court of India itself beautifully, disgustedly quoted “What the hell is going on in this country”? Yes, WTH! Give us a break! Aren’t we craving to witness something different, some change?

Finally, as I always used to argue with my friends that one fine day, when it crosses the verge, people will definitely revolt! It happened and all the credit goes to The great Anna Hazare. Yeah we witnessed it and by stood! But you know what, I’m afraid, lest we someday, see in news “LokPal-Scam”!?

Well, Gandhiji also fought for us to free our nation from Britishers, but what’s the fun after that, look at what have we done to our nation with the freedom we got? Isn’t this the possible extent to which one can use the freedom in the nation to loot the very own country!!? Is this the sole intension in throwing Britishers out, that we din't want them to loot our nation but we want freedom to do it ourselves? How many of us are following Gandhi's principles and are implementing it? God forbid! How long do you expect Anna to back and fight for us, fasting against corruption? What after him? How do we choose our next herald to be a dutiful, loyal member of Lokpal from civil society? Don’t tell me elections!! Or do we expect another Mahathma Gandhi or Anna Hazare to take birth to be a trustful, drafting committee member of Lokpal?? No, I’ve lost faith; I don’t believe anyone, anymore.

I won’t say, a nation should be a crime free and corrupt free. No nation is. But what actions are taken against such misdeeds?? Any nation and its administrations and constitution will definitely have some measures and rules to curb such transgressions. Nation or government is just a body and the corruption in it is because of the people in it. As far as, we let corrupt people in such bodies to rule us and play strings, obviously the body is corrupted. We have Planning commission, Supreme Court and Election committee, but what value have these ever added? Any amendments on legislature or new IPCs to capture and define new advancements in crimes now-a-days? SC successful in punishing Kasab, or any terrorist or culprit? Election commission, ever was able to stop us from casting our votes to a wrong person? Look at Tamil nadu’s elections and the options they have gotta choose between Karunanidhi and Jaya?? Both are no lesser competitive than the other in looting people. What can Election commission do about it?? So is the case with Lokpal too, an independent body though, has no value and carries no sense, unless we care for it, implement it.

Lokpal and the rules in it can, to some extent, would be able to restrict and curb the supply of corruption, but what about the DEMAND for it? For example, take a scenario, when a person jumps traffic signal is caught by the police and fined 300Rs. What if the person opts for tipping (bribing -obviously) police officer a 100Rs instead of paying his fine amount, which directly goes to Officer’s pocket instead of that being drafted into a receipt which gets credited in to Govt account. This is a win-win situation for both, where culprit saves his 200Rs and police benefitted with 100! Now tell me, whose problem is it? And about police being corrupt, Arre, who on this earth doesn’t want to see a cherry on their cake man, that too when offered for free?? Isn’t this the demand for corruption? I totally agree that wrongdoer saved his 200Rs by bribing the officer, wouldn't have he saved 100Rs too, which he bribed, had he not violated the traffic rules? It's outrageous to see, people take pride out of breaking rules and say it passionately "Break the rules"!! What a farce! Whose sake the rules are made for? As responsible citizens, we hold the equal onus and are accountable, for the bribe we give, for the votes we cast in return to freebies, for the leader we chose, for the chance we give them to loot, for the punishment we give them when they betray… Every time we should equally participate… I see many people, just discoursing and blaming at corruption and corrupt people, but never be responsible on their part of role. Not always just fighting for rights, we should be dutiful as well. That’s why it’s wonderfully said “In democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve”. Perhaps this is what we deserve!

Last edited by Bhargavi; 04-12-2011 at 06:13 PM : Proper indentation
Reply With Quote
  #2  
04-30-2011
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2011
: Chennai
: 67
:
: 166 | 0.05 Per Day

Bhargavi,

When we have a problem and we know we have a problem, we have 2 options:

(i) Lament that problems will be problems no matter what, and make profound statements like "We get the Government we deserve", and do nothing. This is precisely what most of us have been doing since independence. Like someone said, also profoundly, "The silence of the good is far worse than the actions of the bad."

(ii) Try to see if something can be done. Which is what Anna Hazare has set out to do. And a few of us are lending our feeble hands. Yet, we're hopeful something can be done. Because, again profoundly, "Nothing can stop an idea whose time has come." While it is true that we have a long way to go, let's not forget that, given the fact that we're Davids in front of the Goliath, we've covered quite some ground and made a good beginning. Since fish starts rotting from its head, if the head is set right, the head will set the society right. If we need impeccably pure people to set things right, we're making it impossible to start; even a Gandhi may not qualify. How have corrupt societies (like the West, HK, etc.) been set right? Did they have pure people?

Ganesan.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
04-30-2011
Junior Member
 
: Apr 2011
: Bangalore
: 32
:
: 22 | 0.01 Per Day

Sure Mr. Ganesan. I agree with your two points to some point. But, Sir, mind not I saying this, ain’t you seem contradicting your own points?

About Pt 1. I’m not being pessimist here. I’m saying the fact and feeling sad about it And YES, unless we awake and act properly and timely, ‘WE GET THE GOVT WE DESERVE, WE ALWAYS WILL’. And yes we deserve to lament on our own mistakes, we knowingly do, as we keep picking wrong people to rule us. Democracy IT IS. India has the vast democracy in the world and the constitution is such a HUGE, I wonder what else it covers, that is not there with other nation’s and how we in spite lag this far from rest of the world?!

Abt Pt 2. To see something can be done the way Anna has done, I’ve been supporting Anna, actively participating in all the campaigns I can, since the day he started the fight. I hope u are aware of the fact that this bill is on hold and pending since more than FOUR DECADES!! Pacifying ourselves saying “We have made a good beginning” is what we Indians are good at. We are so minimalists and be happy with whatever minimal we get, or if we don’t get too. That’s why on this land everything ends before it begins. I meant the same, that when society is not willing to trying to stop the corruption, no matter how many Gandhijis or Hazares come, fight and lead, society rots the same way. . As you clearly mentioned that in West and HK, they cleaned their society not bcz of any Anna or Mahathma.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
05-03-2011
Member
 
: May 2011
: New Delhi
:
: 50 | 0.02 Per Day

Before I start to write, I want to admit that Bhargavi is a very good writer. I went through the entire blog in single breath. I agree or disagree is question to be mind later but was deeply impressed.

What I can understand from this discussion between Bhargavi and Ganesan is that Bhargavi is saying that the change should start from us/our society which is at the lowest level to begin with. OR say that the change should start from the bottom. Without this Anna Hazare and this movement against corruption will hardly yield any result ultimately.

On the other hand, Ganesen is very optimistic about the initial ground this movement has made and the turbulence it has created in the political fraternity. Advocating that if the head is set right, the head will set the society right. Secondly a firm believer that Nothing can stop an idea whose time has come.

I personally think we should not take this movement as any other ordinary movement which will die a natural death after some time. After some time when we get busy with our routine & fixed life. I am also not pacifying about making a good beginning. This fight is going to last long, for sure but I also firmly believe that it will fetch result this time. Will surely fetch result this time.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
05-04-2011
Senior Member
 
: Apr 2011
: Chennai
: 67
:
: 166 | 0.05 Per Day

Bhargavi,

Thanks for your reply.

There is no contradiction in what I'd said. I had not given 2 points, but 2 options. Options will surely contradict each other, as they are meant to be alternatives. Please re-read what I'd said.

I'm not happy with the fact that we have not successfully countered corruption since independence. But it's a fact and we have to face it. So, what else can I say than, "better late than never"? This is by no means 'minimalist' thinking.

Large systems (e.g., countries) have high inertia, and require enormous effort to change them. India being a large and complex country, has this inherent problem. Vested interests gain individually and so take control of politics quickly. Individuals in the country see less personal gains in setting things right and so don't act swiftly. This is what vested interests take advantage of and claim (deceitfully) that they have the support of the majority. What they have done is to subvert the electoral system undermining democracy, but in the very name of democracy.

This is not true of just India, but almost all democracies have to go through such a phase, till most of the people have a reasonable level of subsistence. This is why it is in the interest of all of us that we work for a more equitable society, as otherwise, the interests of the haves and the have-nots will not concur. And it is the nation that will suffer in the hands of opportunistic politicians, who will cheat the haves and the have-nots.

History is full of examples of how people will revolt only when things reach a flash point beyond which they can't take things lying down. (Fact is, for a vast majority of the people in India, this stage hasn't been reached yet.) Why is Israel more assertive as a democracy? Because they have been facing existential threat for ages, not significantly because of any other factor inherent in them. (I"m not making any value judgment here about Israel's cause.)

So, bringing about a change is not an easy task. It requires selfless work of at least some people to fight the case of the society for prolonged durations. Anna represents such an effort today. What is required of us is to stand united (even if we disagree on details, like whether the Bhushans should be on the Committee).

Yes, to an extent I agree "we get the government we deserve". What this means is when the rulers keep pushing us to the breaking point, if we our tolerance is high, we would have permitted them their corruption space, and so we deserve it because we didn't resist. But this will be true of any large, diverse and poor country, not just India. So, this saying should not be used to derisively, but to understand the facts of the situation.

The fact that we have democracy (even if somewhat sham) is our biggest hope.

Ganesan.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
05-04-2011
Junior Member
 
: May 2011
: KARUR
:
: 5 | 0.00 Per Day
Stop arguements

I agree on what Bhargavi said We Indians have a problem "corruption"
Now how to get rid of it ?
It is not overnight solution I feel we each and everyone understand the problem and educate our Indian brothers how corruption affect our life our kids life and all other means only then we can wipe out this problem


I am sure Anna Hazare did the same thing when he stated.

To end corruption we should be clean and obey laws and preserve human rights. Unless otherwise nobody will listeb to us.

I hope this web page can do wonders to educte people by how corruption is taking place in each ministry ,state, city, town ,village, panjayat.......
Reply With Quote
  #7  
05-04-2011
Junior Member
 
: Apr 2011
: Allahabad uttar pradesh
: 63
:
: 9 | 0.00 Per Day
Thumbs up Lok Pal

Bhargavi and Ganeshan, good to see your anxiety against corruption. Common Indian does not resist for common loss. He does not bother even for common profit. Here we need catalyst like you to make them aware of their common loss due to corruption and how can he be benefited if there is no corruption. When we were marching with candle, These common Indians were looking with curiosity. We have to convince them that waging war against corruption will fetch peace and prosperity to them.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
05-05-2011
Member
 
: May 2011
: New Delhi
:
: 50 | 0.02 Per Day
Thumbs up Keep arguing

Ganesan,

I keep visiting this area to see any new discussion between you and Bhargavi. Through this I get access to knowledge which are part of vast stack of knowledge you have. This must have come from years of experience and close observations/analysis of happenings around us. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

Two things in your post on 4th May drew my attention.
"Large systems (e.g., countries) have high inertia, and require enormous effort to change ......"

and the second one is
"when things reach a flash point......(Fact is, for a vast majority of the people in India, this stage hasn't been reached yet)”.

I agree with both the views, our country is big and has high inertia. And effort to correct any problem will also be equally high and tough. For this we need majority of people to understand and join this movement. Problem to achieve this is the second statement mentioned above that for most people flash point has not reached yet where they start to think of acting against something at the place of being a mute viewer. Till they do not feel and understand that the flash point is already there, drawing them to a long battle like this will be a task.


I agree that things have actually reached to a flash point but it may take more time for majority of people to understand this. The quicker they understand, better it will be for this anti corruption movement.

Media also should play a vital role here but is busy these days airing news like which wife of Osama is shot, shot in calf or somewhere else and if calf then of which leg........etc. They will be more interested to know bio-data of each of Osama’s wives, kids, cook, neighbors, sweeper etc. This will be continued till they get some other trivial thing which can be converted into NEWS feed. Considering media's penetration and reach, it is very necessary that media takes active role in educating people about Jan Lokpal Bill/development in drafting in the parliament/exposing the party or individual not supporting the bill/and the need of the bill at all for common citizen.

Last edited by Yogesh099; 05-05-2011 at 10:24 PM
Reply With Quote
  #9  
05-05-2011
Junior Member
 
: Apr 2011
: Bangalore
: 32
:
: 22 | 0.01 Per Day
Exclamation Root cause analysis.

Thanks guys. Swelled to see such reciprocations..

@Yogesh & Charu mitra: Thanks a lot for your supportive words and valuable points in your comments. Agreed on almost everything.

@Ayyanar: Thank you. You are rite, this cannot be achieved overnight, just by passing a bill. This should evolve slowly by educating people towards the wonders that can happen in their personal life, living in a lesser corrupt nation and when that is their own nation. Also this website can do wonders too. But I don’t think much people visit here. And I’m amazed to see that some people consider, having some national pride and playing a responsible citizen role is a shameful trait. Just wondering on the ways I can tell people that it should be one’s pride. I know people are busy with their own personal fights with their daily survival, but we also have a dutiful role to play as citizens of a nation too. We praise Japan and countries like that, and would die to live in a country of such kind (mite be not Japan now, bcz of tremors and tsunamis), but we don’t want to put any effort in turning our nation into one such? We find our home dirty, so we praise others, whose is clean and go there and live?? Shouldn’t we BE CLEAN and make ours a model? Might it take some more effort and time, but at the end, it’s OUR HOME!

@ Ganesan: Thanks Sir. I got ur point. But, I was intending to say that, we should first have the mindset of WE NOT TRYING TO CORRUPT, or demand for corruption. In the example I quoted (traffic one), I've not assumed some random one, that was one which is very factual, often encountered one and I've witnessed it a lot. We don't want ppl to be corrupt, bcz we don't wanna lose our hard earned money. But we are ready to bribe, as a kind of trade off we have to do in saving some higher penalty, we don’t mind. Not only this example, in many cases like to get our job done sooner, to get some special attention and care, we don’t mind paying them a bribe. I’m rather kind of REMINDING us towards the unfortunate fact that “BRIBING HAS BECOME A CUSTOME” so deeply inculcated in our normal lives to the extent of making us forget that IT IS A CRIME and we bribe it as no wonder, but wondering at somebody, doesn’t ask for bribe. What’s the fun in fighting against corruption, appeasing our self, thinking that somebody, like Anna Hazare, is there to fight for us and take care of, unless we vow to not to bribe and lure them to be corrupt?!

And, when you say, “when things reach a flash point”, I’d want to tell you one thing, another sad fact, that We, Indians have trained ourselves so hard that our flash point is too higher and never be reached easily, but build tolerance and set the bar high, every time and be ready to welcome new challenges (I mean bigger corruption). The temperament and the mentality of we Indians, it’s we don’t make up our mind to put even an ounce of effort to change and see things as we want to, but instead we want the world to change according to our convenience, or else we are so much flexible and supple, get used to transgression and become rancid till death. IF WE WANT CHANGE, WE SHOULD CHANGE! No matter however long gone by deeply ingrained custom it is, we allowed it to grow, now it’s our obligation to root out “IF WE WANT IT”. We should change our mind set!

It’s rightly said by you that “Bringing change requires selfless work of at least some people to fight the case of the society for prolonged durations and Anna represents such an effort today”. My perception is, we shouldn’t be dependent on some selfless person to pledge his life like that to save us, but rather have one in each of our own self!

Even, I’m badly wanting this to see this, making a history record in how we turned our nation from such a drowned situation of corruption to a zenith of bliss! But I’m afraid, lest this goes into the same pages of, how we got our independence from Britishers and then kept mum once dust settled, but played a catalyst role in rotting our nation!
I know we have a democracy, BIGGEST ONE in the world (Of course). But the situation is no lesser than any dictatorship, rather worse, being dictated by every god@mn politician, in their own way, according to their convenience, to make them grow richer! See, how many hindrances since how long, in passing a bill to curb evil?? Who’s accountable Sir, for this situation?? Didn’t we have the role to play once and after we got our nation freed from Britishers, before Anna Hazare, a 75 yr elderly man, turn up to remind? I’m not throwing any negative energy here. I’m analyzing and trying to comprehend the Root Cause for this. Not a revolution required, it should evolve from and within us and just small things threw in by every civilian, in our everyday routine, accounts a lot altogether! Unless, how many ever Gandhis, Hazares come, starve, fight, can’t save us, NOT EVEN GOD.

India is/was NEVER a poor country Sir. It’s corrupted, uncivilized! Civilization doesn't only mean, who was first to invent and wear clothes, society should be a civilized and solace to live in.

Yes we should stand united, not just fighting against corruption, but making a nation with better CIVILIZATION.

Last edited by Bhargavi; 05-05-2011 at 12:58 PM
Reply With Quote
  #10  
05-05-2011
Junior Member
 
: Apr 2011
: Mumbai
: 40
:
: 6 | 0.00 Per Day
Lokpal not the answer to systemic corruption

Ms. Bhargavi, not sure why you created a new thread with the same contents as the previous one. Anyway, I would stick to my views in my previous post in response to yours, and feel that the Lokpal Bill is not the answer to wide-spread systemic corruption in public life in our country.
Like you, and millions of our fellow citizens, I am amazed too at the rampant bribery, nepotism, and other forms of corruption at the highest levels. Such scams and mega-scams as CWG, 2G, and what-not "G" are coming to light due to the 24X7 news and media exposure. I guess, the common factor "G" stands for Gross corruption !! So, to some extent we should thank the media for bringing these issues to light into public domain. Of course, some would see a conspiracy in this as well, post-Radia tapes, and justifiably so. Like the scams exposed the bad eggs in our govt and political system, the Radia tapes confirmed the same about certain media-persons who were known to show favour to certain politicians even on panel discussions on their channels. The reason for this erosion of professional ethics amongst some media-persons is the same as for those unscrupulous politicians - too much power reposed in them by the system in which they operate.
Coming back to the issue of corruption, I feel there is no point merely throwing mud at the politicians, who are after all one of us, and duly elected by majority of us. Never mind if the supposedly educated huge middle-class by-and-large abstains from voting, preferring to take the family out for a break. Hence, unless the majority (in the true sense of the word) participates in the electoral system, we are not going to see radical changes in the political setup. Criminalization of politics has ensured that no do-gooder with less-than-enviable bank balance can stand and win elections. In fact, such noble souls end up losing even their deposits. So much for cleaning the system et al.
I shall not comment on M.K. Gandhi and his contribution to the country, as I have rather strong views on the same, and shall save it for another day. However, the neo-gandhism which we are witnessing of late, with the emergence of people like Anna Hazare, may well be short-lived. With Baba Ramdev also having resorted to Anna Hazare's unpatented style of protest - of fast-unto-death - this mode may soon lose its importance and sting. Overdoing anything never has its desired results in the long run.
I wish Anna Hazare, with all his good intentions, hadn't embarked on this crusade with such a flawed alternative to the Lokpal Bill drafted by the govt. Those of you who have read the Jan Lokpal Bill (and the govt's version) would have noticed several bizarre provisions suggested therein, which are both impractical and undemocratic. I feel Mr. Hazare has unwittingly lent his name to a "movement" without quite understanding the details of the provisions he so passionately proposes time and again. On the face of it, it appears that certain people who have been wanting to push the Jan Lokpal Bill have been using Mr. Hazare's clean image and long record of public service to further their own hidden agenda. Hence, like our PM, though Mr. Hazare himself is above board, I can't say the same about his new-found coterie and clingers-on. Instead, it would have been wise of Mr. Hazare to start his crusade against corruption by seeking proper implementation of the dozens of laws we already have to fight this menace. One may argue that Lokpal Bill will suceed where other legislations have failed. There is an inherent flaw in that thinking, as where 10 laws / institutions have failed to correct the system, there is no reason for the 11th not to fail as well. You only need to read the draft of the Jan Lokpal Bill (I believe the 26th draft is the latest !!) to know why it will fail, or in my humble opinion won't even see the light of the day in its current avatar. Sure, I sound cynical, but that's because I believe that systemic and sustainable change should always come from within the system, not without. The answer to failed legislation is not more legislation. I shall state some top-of-the-mind suggestions which could have wide implications on how our govt and political system functions -
1. Unfortunately, the founding fathers of our Constitution reposed too much faith among their ilk. We need to correct this by making watchdogs (called the checks and balances) such as CEC, CAG, CVC and even CBI accountable to the Parliament, not the govt of the day. These Constitutional Authorities should enjoy greater degree of autonomy than they do now. This is to ensure good efficient Administration which the citizen are entitled to. This approach was largely responsible for rooting out corruption from public office in Singapore in the 1970s, which was known for rampant corruption (but now known for good governance).
2. We should review and overhaul all our major laws - which were actually enacted during the British rule. The pillars of our justice system - the IPC and Cr.PC were enacted in the late 19th century under prevailing circumstances. These are the first to be overhauled to reflect current social and legal trends and requirements. For instance, the current laws prohibit an under-trial prisoner from voting, but not from standing for elections. So, one can't vote but can become a lawmaker ?? Bizarre. Needless to say, such provisions in many other laws are incorporated by our corrupt and unscrupulous politicians to safeguard their own interests.
3. The Electoral System should be revamped to enable even common citizens with local support to get elected to legislatures. For Independent candidates State-sponsorship to an extent should be considered. Or perhaps donations to such causes should be tax-exempt, as for charitable trusts. Only if educated and "clean" people enter the system will it get revamped from the dynastic system it is today. It appears that the rulers of the erstwhile princely states have been replaced with MPs who continue to hold sway over their constituency for generations, thanks to public awe of them or money/muscle-power, rather than their contributions to society.
4. Have a firm and strong policy to discourage population growth. Govt should give incentives to people for having no children or just one child. Make those having more kids pay higher taxes and impose other disincentives. Over-population is one of the main reasons for much of the woes of our country, like food shortage, malnutrition deaths, lack of healthcare, and this also leads to corruption as there are far too many to share resources which are far too less.
5. Education for all should be strictly implemented, as lack of literacy/education especially in our rural and semi-urban areas has been directly and indirectly fueling the corrupt system all these decades. When people realize their rights and the benefits they are entitled to, they would cast their vote more wisely, instead of falling for a color TV / grinder / few wads of cash at every election.
Finally, I would like to mention, that we the people of India are collectively to accept responsibility for the social and political system we have today. Hence, let the change start from the grass-roots and it will transform India into an enviable nation one day - a dream our former President Dr. A.P.J. Kalam wanted us to pursue. Power to the people !!!

Last edited by rameshiyer; 05-05-2011 at 06:28 PM
Reply With Quote




India Against Corruption
India Against Corruption is a PUBLIC Forum, NOT associated with any organisation(s).
DISCLAIMER: Members of public post content on this website. We hold no responsibility for the same. However, abuse may be reported to us.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0