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High time.....anna supporters should contest next elections and we should make them win

Dear Summit, et al, There are some pitfalls in this. At this point in time, all those who are opposed .....



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  #21  
09-04-2011
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Dear Summit, et al,

There are some pitfalls in this. At this point in time, all those who are opposed to corruption (which is almost the entire aam aadmi) are united behind Anna.

If Anna were to form a political party and contest elections or field candidates, we need to understand how he'll tackle these issues:

1. What will be the party's stand on divisive issues like reservations (in general, and in every sphere like Lokpal Drafting Committee), splitting large states into smaller ones (like Telengana), Armed Forces Special Powers Act (in sensitive states where there's insurgency & infiltration of terrorists), Prohibition, pricing of agricultural commodities (free market pricing will help agriculturists, but will increase food prices several fold), Environment Vs Industry, FDI Policy, etc.? You'll find that once Anna takes a position, the people will stand divided; politicians will fan these differences multi-fold, and soon Anna will be a spent force.

2. With a corrupt system, individuals can't make a big difference. Even before any changes can be brought about, which will surely take some time, at least some elected representatives will try to make a quick buck, or there will be reasons for people to suspect so. How will Anna handle them? If he sends them out, Anna's support will come down, and people will start getting disenchanted, saying he can't even keep his flock together. If suspicions can come about a person as high as Swami Agnivesh, who will Anna be able to trust for the 100s and 1000s of responsibilities?

3. Anna will be forced to ally with at least some individuals and political parties. Will he, for instance, ally with the Congress? BJP? CPM? CPI? JDS? JDU? FB? BJD? RJD? TMC? DMK? AIADMK? NCP? NC? Damned he will be if he allies with any of them, and damned he will be if he doesn't.

4. Anna will be forced to name a successor, or heads for various tasks, and this may divide the civil society again.

At least some of these decisions will be sound but politically risky, some will backfire, or be at least strongly criticized; the more he gets criticized, the less powerful leader he'll be seen as. Remember the Janata 1977 experiment?

There are more complex issues, but let's first see how these will be handled.

I had, in fact, suggested some time back, a variant of this idea addressing these issues, which I'll explain after hearing the views of folks on my questions.

Thanks,

Ganesan. :~)
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  #22  
09-04-2011
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anna supporters - not anna ji...

Dear Summit, et al,

There are some pitfalls in this. At this point in time, all those who are opposed to corruption (which is almost the entire aam aadmi) are united behind Anna.

If Anna were to form a political party and contest elections or field candidates, we need to understand how he'll tackle these issues:

1. What will be the party's stand on divisive issues like reservations (in general, and in every sphere like Lokpal Drafting Committee), splitting large states into smaller ones (like Telengana), Armed Forces Special Powers Act (in sensitive states where there's insurgency & infiltration of terrorists), Prohibition, pricing of agricultural commodities (free market pricing will help agriculturists, but will increase food prices several fold), Environment Vs Industry, FDI Policy, etc.? You'll find that once Anna takes a position, the people will stand divided; politicians will fan these differences multi-fold, and soon Anna will be a spent force.

2. With a corrupt system, individuals can't make a big difference. Even before any changes can be brought about, which will surely take some time, at least some elected representatives will try to make a quick buck, or there will be reasons for people to suspect so. How will Anna handle them? If he sends them out, Anna's support will come down, and people will start getting disenchanted, saying he can't even keep his flock together. If suspicions can come about a person as high as Swami Agnivesh, who will Anna be able to trust for the 100s and 1000s of responsibilities?

3. Anna will be forced to ally with at least some individuals and political parties. Will he, for instance, ally with the Congress? BJP? CPM? CPI? JDS? JDU? FB? BJD? RJD? TMC? DMK? AIADMK? NCP? NC? Damned he will be if he allies with any of them, and damned he will be if he doesn't.

4. Anna will be forced to name a successor, or heads for various tasks, and this may divide the civil society again.

At least some of these decisions will be sound but politically risky, some will backfire, or be at least strongly criticized; the more he gets criticized, the less powerful leader he'll be seen as. Remember the Janata 1977 experiment?

There are more complex issues, but let's first see how these will be handled.

I had, in fact, suggested some time back, a variant of this idea addressing these issues, which I'll explain after hearing the views of folks on my questions.

Thanks,

Ganesan. :~)
Mr. Ganesan,

Thank you for your views...

I think, you have not read the Thread name correctly...

"anna supporters" should contest next elections and we should make them win, not Anna ji himself... All Anna ji supporters should encourage all those candidates... not Anna ji directly... its just a beginning... It takes logn back to think about Allaince, reservation policies etc.

Am I right Summit...!
__________________
"Where can we go to find God if we cannot see Him in our own hearts and in every living being."

- Swami Vivekananda
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  #23  
09-04-2011
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I strongly feel that Some one has echoed my Vision, Notions, Suggestions in detailed manner for which i must extend many thanks to Summit Ensign. Having witnessed what has happened , i am of this opinion that we must use all apparatuses at our disposal to propagate and promote Anti-Corruption Venture
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  #24  
09-04-2011
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Hello Raghav,

Great to hear from you again.

IFs and BUTs, put in the right spirit, are valuable...they are the spirit of debate...and the ladder of philosophy...no need to unnecessarily restrain them...a lack can create the typical fever of a section of Indians - sycophancy (chamchagiri).

For the ways and means to go forward, I feel we could begin with these -

(1) Educate yourself in whatever you're doing, or whatever you like doing - not only to get a job, but also to become an Expert.

(2) Whenever you go out, try and observe the problems that people around are facing, especially the poor ones. If possible, if you feel like it and if they show interest, talk to them in detail. Tell them about yourself, about Anna Hazare and his Movement, and then ask them about their problems, how long they have lingered, and why they haven't been solved yet. And yes, keep a detailed note of all such activities in a file or notebook, including the date, the issue on which you talked, the name(s) of the person(s) you spoke to, their address, mobile number, or some way to contact them, and the details you gathered. Also take a note of the Politicians from that area, right from the Panchayat/Municipality level to the MLA and the MP.

(3) Simultaneously, try and get across to Educated and Nationally Conscious People in your area, and team up with them.

(4) Together, you could then open a blog (many free blogging sites available like blogger, wordpress-dot-com, blogspot, hubpages and so on. Personally I feel blogger is the best.) and put up those exact details on it IN A TABULAR FORM. This blog will then become the REPORT CARD OF THE POLITICIANS IN YOUR AREA.

(5) Together with your team, approach the Elected Representatives (Panchayat/Municipality, MLA, MP) of that area and talk to them about those issues, and find out what they are doing to alleviate the problems. If they haven't done anything, find out what they are going to do and BY WHEN. Come back and put those things back in your blog. At regular intervals, go and match their performance with their words, and come back and post the results again. NOW YOU'VE CREATED A REPORT CARD FOR THE POLITICIANS IN YOUR AREA, THAT IS OPEN FOR THE ENTIRE NATION TO SEE. (Caveat : However, do NOT do these activities alone. Get at least 10-12 people in you team before you start approaching politicians. And don't stop there. Keep adding people. And never go to the Politicians alone. Take at least 4-5 people with you so they can act as witnesses to what those leaders have said. Also if possible, take small audio or video recording devices with you and so that you can kep a record of what they are saying. But always take their permission before recording. Preserve those audio/video recordings carefully; keep multiple copies if possible. Upload them to a safe, private place on the web if you feel that way. And be cautioned, you could always face Political Retribution for going against corrupt Netas. You could get harassed; or something even more serious might happen. Always keep that in mind.)

(5) At the same time, try and come up with creative solutions to the problems of people, and suggest those to them. They may try them out if they so wish.

(6) And at the same time, we need to educate people about Population Control. Educate them about the benefits of a small family, and how they can make their children better and happier citizens that way. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

(7) Businesses and Industries are very important. They are a strong step of development for they increase society's Financial well-being and provide employment, both directly and indirectly. If you're trained in setting up businesses, you may help people do that, either as personal businesses, or firms, or companies, or as co-operative societies. But remember, this is very tough; so make sure you're trained and experienced enough to handle it; otherwise it could create more problems than benefits.

Those are a few steps I feel we could do within our limited resources. However, remember again, do not put yourself at any risk in trying to do these. Your first value is for yourself and your family members.

And these little steps done by us will add up to a lot. For every hour donated by a hundred persons, the nation gets 100 hours of work. Increase the zeroes and you have the quantum of service increase in multiples of ten.

Those are some of my ideas. If you have creative thoughts of your own, please share with us.

Best Wishes,

Summit.
Wonderful ideas Summit...

The report card one is awesome... But don't you think questioning the corrupted politicians directly, who may have some criminal background, is too risky...!?!

I think, not only we should become an EXPERT but also encourage the people around us to be the same, without any egos and/or jealousy... We should remember that all we are doing is for our country & humanity... There shouldnt be any discriminations here...

How about teaching the students in Govt. schools & colleges for free...!?! I am planning to do that... In most of the cases, teachers in Govt. schools & colleges dont take classes... Even though they attend, they cant update with the latest trends & Students from such background can't compete with the students from corporate schools & colleges... When they turn 18, they also have the right & RESPONSIBILITY to vote... They need proper guidance from the beginning... As you said earlier, this group of people are actually NOT TESTED & create wonders with little encouragement...

Coming to Business & Industries, I am completely against Industrialization... In my view, every village & town should be developed as self-sustainable models by using only natural & pollution-free resources as Anna ji did... We already have soo much technology... Do we really need more when there is lot of pollution & lack of food... Ofcourse its not possible to stop it but its just my opinion...

If I am right, Business & Industries means, to have small scale industries like hand made things etc. then it would be a great idea...

Regards,

Raghav
__________________
"Where can we go to find God if we cannot see Him in our own hearts and in every living being."

- Swami Vivekananda
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  #25  
09-04-2011
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: Aug 2011
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Dear Ganesan,

Your Points are valid, but they are not exactly in the same context that I've been speaking.

But, at the same time, some of your points do have a strong bearing on the process I suggested.

Let me explain.

First, I'll have to hold up Raghav's assertion that I, and we, have spoken NOT about Anna, but about Anna's supporters standing up for Elections...that is, US. You may verify that from the thread's caption, as well as the content.

What I'm suggesting is a move away from the Political Parties, and towards, if I may use that coinage, Civilian Parties. Or for that matter, not even Civilian Parties, but rather Civilian Associations where each member fights as an Independent Candidate. The Association is made only to facilitate faster and more effective communication between these candidates, who must work together as a team against corruption in the Parliament, and to ensure quick, prompt and confidential strategising for Elections and Other Relevant issues. In other words, WE, the Civil Society must participate. WE, Anna's supporters must participate. WE, the enemies of Corruption must Participate.

As for the kind and nature of People to run for Elections, I've already spoken on it at length before.

Now let me elaborate on the other issues -

"1. What will be the party's stand on divisive issues like reservations (in general, and in every sphere like Lokpal Drafting Committee), splitting large states into smaller ones (like Telengana), Armed Forces Special Powers Act (in sensitive states where there's insurgency & infiltration of terrorists), Prohibition, pricing of agricultural commodities (free market pricing will help agriculturists, but will increase food prices several fold), Environment Vs Industry, FDI Policy, etc.? You'll find that once Anna takes a position, the people will stand divided; politicians will fan these differences multi-fold, and soon Anna will be a spent force."

RESPONSE : The issues you mention exist, and will exist, irrespective of whether Anna's supporters fight the Elections or not.

I feel it's incorrect to assume that these issues are completely detached from that of Corruption. In fact, a majority closely linked to it, or to the frustration that stems from it. Medicate the Root - and a lot of the Shoot should take care of itself.

In life, we face two types of questions - the WHY, and the HOW. The WHY is the more difficult to Answer. Once you're past it, the HOW can always be worked out. These issues have lingered in India for a long time. But then still, every five years, for the last sixty years, we've had Elections, and some Politicians have made it to the Parliament by promising to weed them out. Have they ? No. Has the Polity ended ? No. The show still goes on. We can certainly now give the concerned Electorates assurance that we WILL see their issues addressed, with a Genuine Political Will, and will do our best to ensure that the deadlocks resolve out to the best of satisfaction of both sides. Is there a chance that could work in our favour ? There is. Simply because a lot of India and the World has seen what Anna Hazare stands for, and therefore they will understand, for the First time in India, Genuine Political Will will mean Genuine Political Will. That's the answer to the HOW. The answer to the WHY is in almost every post in this forum.

We only need the Resolve, and 545 honest people to make this a reality.

"2. With a corrupt system, individuals can't make a big difference. Even before any changes can be brought about, which will surely take some time, at least some elected representatives will try to make a quick buck, or there will be reasons for people to suspect so. How will Anna handle them? If he sends them out, Anna's support will come down, and people will start getting disenchanted, saying he can't even keep his flock together. If suspicions can come about a person as high as Swami Agnivesh, who will Anna be able to trust for the 100s and 1000s of responsibilities?"

RESPONSE : First, I go against the grain of the notion that individuals can't make a big difference. Rather it IS Individuals who will make a difference, if any. For the system itself is constituted of Individuals. True, it will take some time.

If some of our elected Representatives try to make a quick buck, we have no one but ourselves to blame, for lack of Selection Intelligence and Character Judgement.

"The People will get disenchanted" - WHO are the 'People'? WE. If we don't get disenchanted, the 'People' won't. Tell me, can we even afford to 'get disenchanted' with Hazare and his men at this juncture ? Hazare speaks not for himself, but for US; getting disenchanted with him means getting disenchanted with ourselves. I'd love to see Ganesan getting disenchanted with himself, so that if necessity arises, we can copy and learn.

Leave out Agnivesh; we all know what matter he is. For the 100s and 1000s of Responsibilities, Anna will have to trust US. Can we not ensure that he is able to trust US to the fullest that he'll need to, and even beyond ? Will Ganesan like to break his trust ? Can we not find 545 Ganesans in this population of 120 Crore that will not break his trust ? If we can't, then we probably don't even deserve to be rid of corruption. 545 doesn't even come out even as a cognizable Percentage of 120 Crore; so not having even that translates to we being technically 100% corrupt. Then what, and whom, are we fighting against ?

Anna's flock - is US. If we can't stay together, he won't be able to keep us together. You're right.

"3. Anna will be forced to ally with at least some individuals and political parties. Will he, for instance, ally with the Congress? BJP? CPM? CPI? JDS? JDU? FB? BJD? RJD? TMC? DMK? AIADMK? NCP? NC? Damned he will be if he allies with any of them, and damned he will be if he doesn't."

RESPONSE : If we can find 545 Ganesans in this country who can represent us honestly in the Parliament, Anna won't need a coalition.

"4. Anna will be forced to name a successor, or heads for various tasks, and this may divide the civil society again."

RESPONSE : Anna will never name a successor, for he doesn't believe he is king. He sees himself as a very Simple Indian, who dearly loves his motherland, and wishes only to serve her. As for his successors, we can easily find them ourselves through a common referendum, as was done in the case of soliciting public opinion for the Jan Lokpal Bill.

We need to see Anna not as the leader of our band, but as the leader within ourselves. We need to assimilate him not in our Polity, but in our spirits. Much like when we chant Vande Mataram and Inquilab Zindabad, we can't see the entire nation, but we can feel its spirit within ourselves.

An Educated Revolution should be able to identify and choose it leaders as and when it needs to. If we can't, we shouldn't expect our lives to improve, for then we probably lack the Education of Identification.

"5. At least some of these decisions will be sound but politically risky, some will backfire, or be at least strongly criticized; the more he gets criticized, the less powerful leader he'll be seen as. Remember the Janata 1977 experiment?"

RESPONSE : With 545 Ganesans in our Parliament, I don't see anything going rapidly against expectations, at least for some foreseeable future. Adjustments to the steering will certainly be warranted, as and when and how the Road curves in the future; but for now, I believe, we certainly can turn the gear up.

"6. There are more complex issues, but let's first see how these will be handled."

RESPONSE : True, there certainly are more complex issues, and will probably always continue to be, for India is a complex country, housing tremendous diversity in its unity.

7. You didn't ask me, but I so wanted to tell you - If you stand up for Elections, favouring Anna's issues (our issues), I'll certainly support you. There - you've already picked up a vote! See what I was saying about Anna's SUPPORTERS standing up for Elections ? It might be that easy to win. Why not give it a try ? What do we stand to lose ? Vote for - Ganesan !


BUT A WORD OF CAUTION : The issues in your Point No. 1 should not be taken lightly; for these are THE VERY points on which Mischevious Elements could attempt to drive wedges between us. We have not just ourselves to keep alert, but others too. As I said, if Anna's flock is to stay together, it needs to well devote energy and attention to staying together. This is the biggest need of the hour.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Thank you,

Summit.

Last edited by Summit Ensign; 09-05-2011 at 02:06 AM
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  #26  
09-04-2011
Senior Member
 
: Aug 2011
: Kolkata
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I strongly feel that Some one has echoed my Vision, Notions, Suggestions in detailed manner for which i must extend many thanks to Summit Ensign. Having witnessed what has happened , i am of this opinion that we must use all apparatuses at our disposal to propagate and promote Anti-Corruption Venture

Oh you're Welcome Radical...

I'm glad you share my views.

I feel happy and privileged to be of any service to my nation...our nation...

Thank you and keep writing,

Summit.
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  #27  
09-05-2011
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: Aug 2011
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Wonderful ideas Summit...

The report card one is awesome... But don't you think questioning the corrupted politicians directly, who may have some criminal background, is too risky...!?!

I think, not only we should become an EXPERT but also encourage the people around us to be the same, without any egos and/or jealousy... We should remember that all we are doing is for our country & humanity... There shouldnt be any discriminations here...

How about teaching the students in Govt. schools & colleges for free...!?! I am planning to do that... In most of the cases, teachers in Govt. schools & colleges dont take classes... Even though they attend, they cant update with the latest trends & Students from such background can't compete with the students from corporate schools & colleges... When they turn 18, they also have the right & RESPONSIBILITY to vote... They need proper guidance from the beginning... As you said earlier, this group of people are actually NOT TESTED & create wonders with little encouragement...

Coming to Business & Industries, I am completely against Industrialization... In my view, every village & town should be developed as self-sustainable models by using only natural & pollution-free resources as Anna ji did... We already have soo much technology... Do we really need more when there is lot of pollution & lack of food... Ofcourse its not possible to stop it but its just my opinion...

If I am right, Business & Industries means, to have small scale industries like hand made things etc. then it would be a great idea...

Regards,

Raghav

Hi Raghav,

I agree with most of your views, and differ on one...

Thanks for bigging me up on the Report Card...

Yes, it is dangerous to directly go and question Polits with Criminal Backgrounds is Dangerous...Very, Very Dangerous...

Your idea of teaching for free in Govt. schools is AWESOME...YES, that is EXACTLY what we require more of...the CHANGE MUST BEGIN AT THE GRASSROOTS...A healthier sprout leads to a stouter willow...

In fact, I've also been considering a Variant, i.e. to start a Citizen Club in my Area, with Young People, especially the unprivileged. But in the midst of all that I am in, I'm still guessing the spots on my Clock and Calendar I could avail.

But, I don't quite seem to be able to concur with the part on Business and Industry. It would be lovely to be able to develop each and every village as a self-sufficient entity...but it reality, that cannot be sustained. No Man is an Island....see, if the Computer was developed to be a self sustained entity having no transaction with any other...the Internet wouldn't have come into existence...and I and You wouldn't have been talking...God has not made any one of us complete...that is the reason that humans live in a society...similarly, God hasn't endowed every place with all the riches...locations need to complement each other.

Further, if every unit were self-sustainable, that could soon lead to closeting...communications between units could dry up...and the structure begin to gravitate toward Feudalism...that's doubly dangerous...

Remember, Necessity is the mother of not just invention...but also of communication...

Small and middle scale industries are fine, but it is large scale industries that keep the majority of the economy afloat. There are certain products like Petroleum, Steel, Cement, Pharmaceuticals etc that need to achieve something called "Economies of Scale" to be Profitable and Sustainable. Small and medium scale set-ups just can't achieve that.

Take a clue from Nature...it's packed with diversity...where sixty feet redwoods race to the sky, smaller shrubs and herbs squat the earth; where yellow blooms, red and blue flourish; where the pineapple bulks, the peanut squeezes in too. Things co-exist; and those that don't simply cease to exist. It is fallacious to think only one scale will survive, and others will perish; Mother Nature isn't exclusive, but rather inclusive; it has room for everyone - well maybe almost everyone. Everything will find its place under the sun.

Understand, we are at the doors of the Space Age; within probably a few decades, we'll start colonising Real Estate outside of Earth. To turn back at this crucial juncture to a feudal or closeted existence, will be walking retrograde in time. That's, probably, suicidal.

But being an Environment buff and a die-hard Nature Romantic myself, I can really understand your emotions. In fact, I can point out what you're going through right now. Whenever I see chimneys spewing fumes into the open, and sewers spitting turd into rivers, something just cuts across my heart. I bleed inside. That makes me an advocate of RESPONSIBLE INDUSTRIALISATION, i.e. Industrialising without harming Nature. You just can't throw your scat and piddle anywhere and run. If you're exuding something, make sure you kill off its dross before disposing it outdoors. EFFLUENT TREATMENT AND DETOXIFICATION SHOULD BE MADE ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY, AND FOLLOWED UP WITH SEVERE PUNISHMENTS IF VIOLATED (Hopefully, under a non-corrupt administration, this should not be tough to implement).

Hope that sets me up....

Enjoy,

Summit.

Last edited by Summit Ensign; 09-05-2011 at 01:47 AM
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  #28  
09-05-2011
Senior Member
 
: Aug 2011
: Kolkata
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I strongly feel that Some one has echoed my Vision, Notions, Suggestions in detailed manner for which i must extend many thanks to Summit Ensign. Having witnessed what has happened , i am of this opinion that we must use all apparatuses at our disposal to propagate and promote Anti-Corruption Venture


Absolutely True, Radical...

WE'RE AT WAR...AND NOTHING SHORT OF IT...

And in a War, Prudence demands that we make the best possible use of all Available Resources...

And it also dictates Cutting off the Enemy's Supply Line...

The Supply Lines of our ENEMIES today are their VOTE-BANKS...snatch that away from them...You've Politically FINISHED them...

And the Best Weapon to do that...Education...and Peaceful, Non-Violent Protest...and Prudent Political Action...

WE'RE AT WAR...AND NOTHING SHORT OF IT...LETS LEAVE NOTHING LOOSE...


Summit.

Last edited by Summit Ensign; 09-05-2011 at 06:16 PM
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  #29  
09-11-2011
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Dear Friends,

Yes...ANYBODY WHO THINKS HE IS WITH ANNA MUST READ THIS POST BY GANESAN...urgently...

In addition to stressing that Anna's Supporters should fight Elections, we must also prepare ourselves on the points that our Respected Member Ganesan has raised here -
Send a Message & Thanks Note to ANNA...
Make sure you read this...it really is very important...

Thanks,

Summit.
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  #30  
09-12-2011
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well ...i think that the call of Anna ji about RIGHT TO RECALL is very good to fight if its get impliment in proper way !!! so we shold work in that field also !!

one more thing i would like to add that the idea of opposing and making a negative
campaign against the politicions in the elections in their area may also give very good result to the country and a learn to the political parties !!!!
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